Class updates, and my methods behind it
A few classes have been updated lately.
The demon hunter, necromancer, geomancer, and a few others have received major updates. I also uploaded the entire priestess class, as well as the samurai archetype: spirit sword!
When balancing classes I make, I do my best to compare them to existing ones in power level and progression. Sometimes it's affected by other games (i.e. many games create classes that don't have definitive weaknesses) or I just like making things strong.
In the first iteration of the demon hunter, it was pretty OP. Or, had certain aspects that were too strong - such as, demonic resistances (instead of resist electricity 5 at 5th + 5 per 5 levels after, and at each increment, choosing a new resistance to gain 5 in) used to be resist 5 all, to resist 10 all at 13th, and that was just too much. That and they gained innate spell resistance at 13th, too.
A little much. But seeing the monk, I did my best to compare.
Here's a few ways I work on it.
Sometimes I value certain abilities, one obvious one for the demon hunter being natural attack damage potential and the power of unarmed strike.
Monks gain 1d6 damage at first (one step increase at 4th and every 4 after) so I kept the same progression - but natural attacks come in three different packages.
Unarmed strike is one damage level, and is one hit per round (until +6). Claws are 2 attacks, as are talons and pincers--so I set those to damage one step lower at first level (1d4). Other natural attacks only have one, such as gore, so those are set to "four levels higher" aka 1d6 at first level to match the unarmed strike.
Another confounding aspect is primary vs. secondary attacks. Secondaries are at a -5 penalty, so if the natural attacks become too plentiful, that can adjust for it. Unless the demon hunter takes multiattack, that is.
While multiattack does seem powerful, it's still a feat to take--and it is almost required to balance the demon hunter against the monk in raw full-round attack power.
In order to balance one natural attack to another, I added secondary effects to the secondary attacks--the tail can trip in place of its attack, the hoof can use vicious stomp, and so on. This seems strong, but they are still subject to the -5 to attack rolls--and for tripping, that's very dangerous. They are also required to only have these bonuses using this attack type.
At 1st level,
The differences are, as follows:
With no gear, 16 strength:
Claws
+4/+4 1d4
Horns
+4 1d6 or -1 1d6, +4 (longsword)
Tail
-1 1d6, +4 1d8 (longsword)
Unarmed strike
+4/+4 1d6
Somewhat balanced, though I'd say the unarmed strike is stronger. But that's fine! Progression can't be the same for everything.
Let's take a look at 6th level.
Claws/tail
+9/+9 1d6
+4 1d8 (+7 with multiattack)
claws/horns
+9/+9 1d6
+9 1d8
Tail/horns
+4/+4 1d8 (+7 multi)
+9/+4 1d8 (longsword)
or
+9 1d8
+4 1d8
Unarmed strike
+9/+9/+4 1d8
Things get a little closer. The unarmed strike comes close to the natural attacks, though the demon hunter almost (potentially) moves ahead if they have multiattack, and even then it isn't by much.
At 11th level,
Claws/horns/tail
+14/+14 1d8
+14 1d10
+9 1d10 (+12 with multiattack)
Unarmed strike
+14/+14/+14/+9/+4 1d10
This is when the monk gets their new flurry of blows attack, giving them a big damage spike. They're undoubtedly stronger than the demon hunter, but the demon hunter can move things around, if they have multiattack, to do the following.
Longsword +14/+8/+4 1d8
Claw +12 1d8
Horns +12 1d10
Tail +12 1d10
Now this gets very close. The demon hunter has more attacks now, but it changes so that all of their natural attacks are secondary.
When things become secondary attacks, it heavily affects their damage, depending on their modifiers:
Primary: no change
Secondary:
-5 attack (-2 with multiattack)
Half damage from strength
Half damage from power attack
The last two have a big effect - which in turn balances the multiattack feat regarding weapons, and making power attack almost not worth the attack penalty--especially when they have a -2 on the attacks already. All depends on the monster's AC. That, and how much their party can help them - the monk gets an extra attack from ki, and stacks with haste, while the demon hunter's attacks do not stack with haste.
When looking at demon talents, I've tried to make some akin to feats (some actually being feats) as long as they make sense. I've also looked at variability - i.e. how many demon talents you can potentially take when compared to the choices of others. I added up magus arcanas, rogue talents, alchemist discoveries, and ki powers.
Ki powers are deceptively plentiful, since the unchained monk can choose from the massive list of qinggong monk powers.
Some that I've struggled with the power of are the universal monster ability ones such as trip, grab, and bull rush. These automatically give a trip or grab etc. attempt on a hit. These are pretty powerful, but they do involve a secondary attack, and still don't allow them to trip with other appendages.
Spell-like abilities I was suspicious of, but seeing certain qinggong monk powers (barkskin for 1 ki, restoration, remove disease for 2 ki) it settled me, since stuff like restoration is extremely powerful since the restoration doesn't even require material components.
One thing should always define the class. For me, it's not the natural attacks, or the demon talents--it's the avatar. It decides what manifestations you take, and how your powers come out as a whole.
Designing the avatar abilities was tough at times, though some of it was basically taking them from the demon pages in the bestiary. Part of it was that these abilties had to be unique to the avatar, and define their niche within the class. Each avatar also has one specific avatar ability which I think defines the demon.
Babau: Protective slime
Balor: Vorpal strike
Glabrezu: Conjure image
Hezrou: Nausea
Lilitu: Brand
Marilith: Crushing coils
Nabasu: Death gaze
Nelfeshnee: Distracting lights
Shadow demon: Incorporeal form
Succubus: Energy drain
Vrock: Dance of ruin
Yaenit: Break bones
Avatar abilities needed to be special, and definitive, so people know where they get their powers - with a high enough knowledge (planes) check, anyway.
I made these akin to the progression of bloodline abilities, though many are active ones.
The unarmed strike and stunning fist defines a monk to me. Stunning fist is strong because they can use it once per level per day, and as they level (every 4 levels) they can inflict new conditions to adjust to different targets. But it's supposed to be strong.
Regarding class-to-class balance (Demon Hunters)
When balancing classes I make, I do my best to compare them to existing ones in power level and progression. Sometimes it's affected by other games (i.e. many games create classes that don't have definitive weaknesses) or I just like making things strong.
In the first iteration of the demon hunter, it was pretty OP. Or, had certain aspects that were too strong - such as, demonic resistances (instead of resist electricity 5 at 5th + 5 per 5 levels after, and at each increment, choosing a new resistance to gain 5 in) used to be resist 5 all, to resist 10 all at 13th, and that was just too much. That and they gained innate spell resistance at 13th, too.
A little much. But seeing the monk, I did my best to compare.
Here's a few ways I work on it.
Natural attacks vs. Unarmed strike
Sometimes I value certain abilities, one obvious one for the demon hunter being natural attack damage potential and the power of unarmed strike.
Monks gain 1d6 damage at first (one step increase at 4th and every 4 after) so I kept the same progression - but natural attacks come in three different packages.
Unarmed strike is one damage level, and is one hit per round (until +6). Claws are 2 attacks, as are talons and pincers--so I set those to damage one step lower at first level (1d4). Other natural attacks only have one, such as gore, so those are set to "four levels higher" aka 1d6 at first level to match the unarmed strike.
Another confounding aspect is primary vs. secondary attacks. Secondaries are at a -5 penalty, so if the natural attacks become too plentiful, that can adjust for it. Unless the demon hunter takes multiattack, that is.
While multiattack does seem powerful, it's still a feat to take--and it is almost required to balance the demon hunter against the monk in raw full-round attack power.
In order to balance one natural attack to another, I added secondary effects to the secondary attacks--the tail can trip in place of its attack, the hoof can use vicious stomp, and so on. This seems strong, but they are still subject to the -5 to attack rolls--and for tripping, that's very dangerous. They are also required to only have these bonuses using this attack type.
At 1st level,
The differences are, as follows:
With no gear, 16 strength:
Claws
+4/+4 1d4
Horns
+4 1d6 or -1 1d6, +4 (longsword)
Tail
-1 1d6, +4 1d8 (longsword)
Unarmed strike
+4/+4 1d6
Somewhat balanced, though I'd say the unarmed strike is stronger. But that's fine! Progression can't be the same for everything.
Let's take a look at 6th level.
Claws/tail
+9/+9 1d6
+4 1d8 (+7 with multiattack)
claws/horns
+9/+9 1d6
+9 1d8
Tail/horns
+4/+4 1d8 (+7 multi)
+9/+4 1d8 (longsword)
or
+9 1d8
+4 1d8
Unarmed strike
+9/+9/+4 1d8
Things get a little closer. The unarmed strike comes close to the natural attacks, though the demon hunter almost (potentially) moves ahead if they have multiattack, and even then it isn't by much.
At 11th level,
Claws/horns/tail
+14/+14 1d8
+14 1d10
+9 1d10 (+12 with multiattack)
Unarmed strike
+14/+14/+14/+9/+4 1d10
This is when the monk gets their new flurry of blows attack, giving them a big damage spike. They're undoubtedly stronger than the demon hunter, but the demon hunter can move things around, if they have multiattack, to do the following.
Longsword +14/+8/+4 1d8
Claw +12 1d8
Horns +12 1d10
Tail +12 1d10
Now this gets very close. The demon hunter has more attacks now, but it changes so that all of their natural attacks are secondary.
When things become secondary attacks, it heavily affects their damage, depending on their modifiers:
Primary: no change
Secondary:
-5 attack (-2 with multiattack)
Half damage from strength
Half damage from power attack
The last two have a big effect - which in turn balances the multiattack feat regarding weapons, and making power attack almost not worth the attack penalty--especially when they have a -2 on the attacks already. All depends on the monster's AC. That, and how much their party can help them - the monk gets an extra attack from ki, and stacks with haste, while the demon hunter's attacks do not stack with haste.
Demon Talents
Ki powers are deceptively plentiful, since the unchained monk can choose from the massive list of qinggong monk powers.
Some that I've struggled with the power of are the universal monster ability ones such as trip, grab, and bull rush. These automatically give a trip or grab etc. attempt on a hit. These are pretty powerful, but they do involve a secondary attack, and still don't allow them to trip with other appendages.
Spell-like abilities I was suspicious of, but seeing certain qinggong monk powers (barkskin for 1 ki, restoration, remove disease for 2 ki) it settled me, since stuff like restoration is extremely powerful since the restoration doesn't even require material components.
Demonic Avatars - defining the class
One thing should always define the class. For me, it's not the natural attacks, or the demon talents--it's the avatar. It decides what manifestations you take, and how your powers come out as a whole.
Designing the avatar abilities was tough at times, though some of it was basically taking them from the demon pages in the bestiary. Part of it was that these abilties had to be unique to the avatar, and define their niche within the class. Each avatar also has one specific avatar ability which I think defines the demon.
Babau: Protective slime
Balor: Vorpal strike
Glabrezu: Conjure image
Hezrou: Nausea
Lilitu: Brand
Marilith: Crushing coils
Nabasu: Death gaze
Nelfeshnee: Distracting lights
Shadow demon: Incorporeal form
Succubus: Energy drain
Vrock: Dance of ruin
Yaenit: Break bones
Avatar abilities needed to be special, and definitive, so people know where they get their powers - with a high enough knowledge (planes) check, anyway.
I made these akin to the progression of bloodline abilities, though many are active ones.
The unarmed strike and stunning fist defines a monk to me. Stunning fist is strong because they can use it once per level per day, and as they level (every 4 levels) they can inflict new conditions to adjust to different targets. But it's supposed to be strong.
The difficult part: The weakness
One tough thing sometimes is knowing what a class' weakness is. This can be anything. But sometimes the weakness is spread over multiple things.
Honestly, some classes don't have a true weakness. The reflex save doesn't count.
Barbarian - Their will save, kinda except during rage.
Bard - Fortitude save, and enemies not susceptible to mind-affecting effects.
Cleric - No true weakness, though they have a medium bab I guess.
Druid - No true weakness. This is probably the most powerful class.
Fighter - Their will save, except fear.
Monk - No weakness. Maybe ranged combat. The unchained monk has a low will save, but lets not forget that they get a passive +2 to enchantments at 5th, and wisdom is usually very high.
Paladin - No true weakness, especially not their saves. Only less effective against non-evils, but even then they're high BAB.
Ranger - Will save, and enemies that aren't their favoured ones. (sort of)
Sorcerer - Fortitude save, low AC.
Wizard - Fortitude save, low AC.
---
Demon hunter - Depends on the fury form. For havoc, it's their fortitude save. Easy.
'
For vengeance, their bad save is reflex. Nothing scary, and not really a weakness.
Vengeance tends to thrive at low health, which is a dangerous way to play as a whole, but it isn't really a weakness since its not necessary. Demon hunters as a whole don't deal with ranged combat very well, but they have ways to attack at ranged at least (martial weapons).
Demon hunters in general thrive on combat against demons, which is only one type of one type of outsider. But they still have high BAB and high CMD.
I wouldn't say they have a definitive weakness, but some core classes (druid, paladin) don't.
Others, like a magus, really don't. Sure they have a medium bab. But they also have 6th level spells and spellstrike. They can also take the arcane accuracy arcana to get +int to all attack rolls, too.
Others, like a magus, really don't. Sure they have a medium bab. But they also have 6th level spells and spellstrike. They can also take the arcane accuracy arcana to get +int to all attack rolls, too.
Right now, it's difficult to see a demon hunter character I currently play as having a weakness, but that's mostly because her stats are obscene. (STR 18, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 16, WIS 12, CHA 20) though that's with racial +2 str/cha and +1 str from leveling. Still. Though I have been whipped around by most bosses in the game so far. Almost died on the last one...
Thanks for reading! :)
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